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Ren's Strategy Guide
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Mad Scout



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Ren's Strategy Guide Reply with quote

Ren wrote:
Ren's Strategy Guide For Amateurs




Note the above title. Think about that before you think his guide is junk.

Regardless of the fact that we're all amateurs at winbolo 'cause there are no professionals (I don't remember any tournaments or the IBL having a purse), I am assuming that "amateurs" means novice players. Most of the people being critical of ren's guide are not novice players, so the guide is way below them, and they can't really use it. But some newer players would benefit from reading it, I think.

For instance, it mentions that you should not make long distance lgm sends. Min argued that sometimes it's good to do it. Well for a lower tiered, novice player, it's NEVER good!! They don't know what the hell they're doing! And I don't think their intent is to get their lgm killed.

Also, the guide says to play defensively when you're down on pills. Min says you should go on the offensive, not to lay back. Now come on, what do you think would happen if a novice player stuck his neck out with only a few pills? He'd lose them all in 10 seconds!!!! The novice player is not advanced enough to do something as crafty as go on offense with only a few pills.

I think ren's guide may need a little tweaking, but I see the intent and it's a good intent. Maybe if newbies take time to read it and use its ideas they'll get better and become ready for a more advanced guide in strategy and tactics.
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Hard8



Joined: 29 May 2004
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These guides from the Official Bolo Home Page cover a lot of the ground that Ren's guide goes over.

http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/puppylove.html
http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/bl-guide.html

Don't get me wrong, though, I appreciate that Ren made an effort to help others. The shorter article style of guide is probably a lot more palatable to the new player than PL's guide. Keeping the focus of the article a little tighter like BL's posts would be more informative and conducive to further discussion and debate. And that’s the real fun of posting to a message board.
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Min



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Ren's Strategy Guide Reply with quote

Mad Scout wrote:

For instance, it mentions that you should not make long distance lgm sends. Min argued that sometimes it's good to do it. Well for a lower tiered, novice player, it's NEVER good!! They don't know what the hell they're doing! And I don't think their intent is to get their lgm killed.


well mad scout, if we all just sit back and go "ya, ren's 'strategy' guide rocks" then all the 'amatuers' will think that they should use it, so they will never develop any strategical thinking in regards to something like long bomb spiking, or going offensive with a smaller number of pills (ever hear that the best defense is a good offensive?) If we all chant that these things are bad, they won't consider the uses they have in certain situations, sure a newer player should perhaps try to reduce this sort of thing, but if they do that ..... how will they learn? ..... maybe the way you guys currently do things is ineffective? ... and some newbie will come up with a way to kick the crap out of you all using a new style of play?

Mad Scout wrote:

I think ren's guide may need a little tweaking, but I see the intent and it's a good intent. Maybe if newbies take time to read it and use its ideas they'll get better and become ready for a more advanced guide in strategy and tactics.


If you immerse a player in tactics before you show them the finer points of the game, they will never be willing to break away from the tactical thinking. For example, Ren. I will just love it when the game play changes again, and you guys realize what the game is all about.

Min
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Mad Scout



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Ren's Strategy Guide Reply with quote

Min wrote:


well mad scout, if we all just sit back and go "ya, ren's 'strategy' guide rocks" then all the 'amatuers' will think that they should use it, so they will never develop any strategical thinking in regards to something like long bomb spiking, or going offensive with a smaller number of pills (ever hear that the best defense is a good offensive?) If we all chant that these things are bad, they won't consider the uses they have in certain situations, sure a newer player should perhaps try to reduce this sort of thing, but if they do that ..... how will they learn? .....
Min


They WILL develop strategical thinking, they WILL learn new ideas. They'll learn them by getting beaten by someone using these ideas. Oh, and they'll learn by reading BL's guide, because by then hopefully they'll be ready for it. You're not ready for his guide if you don't know basic stuff, like how to take pills at many different angles, how to use your lgm safely, pillwarring and many other things.

Having a newbie read his guide is like having a bunch of 7 year old kids play baseball on a major league sized diamond, with MLB rules. They're simply not ready, not even close. For 7 year old kids to be able to play baseball they need to be on a little-league sized diamond (60 ft. instead of 90 ft. between bases, I think), and the ball needs to be on a tee or have the dads pitch, and 6 kids in the outfield, and no stealing bases. As they get older, they're ready for more elements to be added to their game, and by the time they're teenagers, they can play on the big diamond with the more advanced rules. Same thing goes for novice winbolo players.

But if you don't teach base stealing right away to little kids playing baseball, how will they ever learn it??? How will the catcher learn how to throw down to 2nd??? How will the pitcher learn to keep an eye on the runner while concentrating on the hitter???

They'll figure it out when they're good and ready.

I think ren's guide might be a way to help novice players get from point A to point B. Let's not rush them off to point Z, you might frustrate them.
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Ren



Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 417

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never said my guide is "the shit" or "the best" in any form, shape, or size. Everyone knows it isn't as good as samhains and i sure as hell no it too. But for some of you to be soo judging and complete assholes to such is just cruel and rude. I may not succeed in what i try in but i have the courage to go for something i feel like doing. Yeah, sure maybe it's worthless to some, but think again.. Why would i put it up if i knew you guys were just going to insult insult and insult. I'm glad to see how some commented, and said i can do better, and yeah, i probably could do better, but for some of you to just make a horrific and cruel, and RUDE statement saying this blows because, quoting things from the guide and saying why it blows. There's some of you out there have done absolutely NOTHING for the community. Yes, i said nothing. you decide to just BITCH about other people's hard work and stuff. Maybe you should try making a strategy guide like mine, or longer. See how long it takes you. I can easily say mine took atleast 3 hours to make, with everything i did. All i can say is maybe you guys should try to think of what it would be like to be in my shoes right now.
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renbot.winbolo.us
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Suicide Jockey



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 657

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

--

Last edited by Suicide Jockey on Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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addbot



Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ren:

I don’t think people are attacking the principle of what you did, they most certainly are not after offending you neither. They are pointing out to that the "title" of your guide should probably be rectified to a title that suits the objectives you covered. I would agree your guide was more about pill-handling and pill-warring. This has been stated and pointed out to you clearly a couple times. The time you spent and the knowledge you typed up isn’t a real "beef", nor has a bunch of people attacked you for your efforts. Instead they are trying to broaden your work, if you truly were intending to make a "strategy guide" you will have to endeavor the entire realm of bolo strategy, rather then just one element of the game. One component u haven’t really covered (as an example) would be “bases.” Perhaps more detail on when is an appropriate time to rape, and when not to. Another aspect might be planted prestigiously to allow pill-view to occur and be established with in a certain portion of the map, or your quad. Pills aren’t always placed just for battle and for warring, they are a sufficient way of being aware of your surroundings if planted strategically. These are just a few of the vast amounts of points tips and strategies available.

Consider Mins comments as more constructive criticism and appointed logic that you may have overlooked. Samhain actually commmended you for your work. He also applied some intuitive remarks that might assist and direct your work as well. Consider it also in these terms: you have tendencies in games to tell others where to go and what to do, that is possibly where some aggression towards “you being arrogant” remarks has seized into this forum. It’s rather challenging to me to see someone, who yes may rank well in the bolo stats, and may have good skills in the game; make a guide when there are so many vast things that even “You”, a high ranked bolo player, are missing and tend to not apply to your game on the battlefield. I for one don’t always like being your ally due to your arrogance and over demanding maneuvers and suggestions during the heat of the moment.

I am proud of you for taking initiative to post some assisting thoughts for “newbies,” or newly found players. Keep an open mind to what the purpose of the forum is truly about, other people might have branching points to add that these “newbies” can also take in consideration along with some of the basic tips and points to pill-handling.

Add-boy
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Madd Maxx



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice posts, *bump*
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Elvis



Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does it need to be bumped? Its still on the front page, its also still the first post in the general forum. It hasn't disappeared behind a lot of other topics.
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flad



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahaha Elvis is funny
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Madd Maxx



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just thought I should have said something.......
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Jason#8



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 486

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=Madd Maxx]I just thought I should have said something.......[/quote] well, u just said something, dumbass.


Min: enhance the guide if u don't like it, keep it to the point, though

Ren: nice job in helping the community

Jason#8
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addbot



Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason:

Think about what you just typed for a few minutes:

Jason8: Min: enhance the guide if u don't like it, keep it to the point, though

Unfortunately, that made little to no sense. A "strategy guide" was the point, and ren was bellowing a stray from the point himself. It seems very derogative for you to demand that one keep a guide to the point, and then turn around and commend another for creating a guide that isnt associated with the point it was entitled to represent.

Jason ever heard of a Oxy-Moron, (This doesnt mean your a moron) Perhaps u should if you dont, it is well apparent that u just made one with your post.

Add
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Jason#8



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 486

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

addbot, what i was trying to say is that min should keep it short so that it's not a 500 page book. keep to the point so noobs dont fall asleep in the middle of it.

Jason#8
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Madd Maxx



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damnit, I hate this "helping the community" notion. Btw, it sure would be nice to have a five hundred page book/ebook on WinBolo.

Last edited by Madd Maxx on Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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